... and just when you think he's done ... he sings some more. Plus, chores! And getting your kid to do them. Author Asha Dornfest has some ideas.
With our nation in turmoil over COVID-19 and protests against systemic racism, the idea of talking about chores may seem frivolous. But most American families are still at home, overwhelmed by laundry, dishes, and dust piling up at unprecedented rates. How do we get our kids to help? Asha Dornfest has some ideas. She's the author of the books Parent Hacks and Minimalist Parenting.
Plus, comedian W. Kamau Bell shares the surprising messages his kids are finding in the shows they're watching on TV.
After the show:
And we want to hear your tips and suggestions! What are you watching with your kids? Send your stories to parenttrapped@commonsense.org, and we might invite you on the show.
Parent Trapped was brought to you by founding sponsor First Republic Bank. To learn more about their services, visit http://firstrepublic.com
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AMB: You know what doesn't feel appropriate now? Talking about chores. It seems right to do a show on talking to your kids about racism – we did that last week, so check it out. But, in light of what's happening in our country right now, the idea of doing a show about chores just seems so – frivolous.
[sounds of water running]
AMB: But the thing is, most of us are still at home, and the laundry still needs to get done. We still have to do the dishes, feed the dog – feed ourselves! So much cooking! And that's for me and my family, lucky enough to have work, able to do it at home, and able to have what we need.
[1:04] AMB: Every day I feel bogged down from all the stuff to do, and every day, I feel frustrated that my children aren't doing enough. And it's not only because it's overwhelming for us, the parents in the house, which it totally is. But also because I fear that I am raising humans who don't know how to do things for themselves. A 12-year-old who refuses to sweep. An 8-year-old who “ughs” every time I ask her to clean the table. These kids are just one generation removed from immigration and hardship, and this is an amount of entitlement I don't want them to have. They have to do better. I have to do better. But how? If we have to spend all of this time at home, my kids better know how to freakin' keep house.
[sound of the toilet brush]
AMB: From Common Sense Media, I'm Ann Marie Baldonado and this is Parent Trapped.
[family screaming]
[2:06] AMB: Coming up, Asha Dornfest, author of the books Parent Hacks and Minimalist Parenting, talks about how to get your kids to do their share of the housework. And then comedian W. Kamau Bell shares what shows he's watching with his 3 young daughters, and the surprising messages they take from them – about race, culture, and how to deal with emotions.
[music]
AMB: We called on Asha Dornfest to talk about kids and chores because since she started writing about parenting in the mid 2000s, she's taken a pragmatic approach – trying to simplify everyday family struggles. Asha calls herself a parent of 2 “almost adults” – her son is in college and her daughter is in high school.
AD: The reality of my life is that I have older kids, who don't remember to do their chores, by the way, so… [laughs]
[3:09] AMB: But she remembers when her kids were younger, at the “ugh-ing” stage. Back then, she read all kinds of parenting books but they didn't really help. So she started to think about things her own way. And she wanted parents to stop worrying about other people's expectations. She says to make things easier on yourself in whatever way you can. And trust your own instincts. My question for her was, what if my instincts told me that it's just easier to do stuff around the house because it's quicker? What if my instincts caused me to miss the boat when my kids were younger, and now I might never get them to do stuff?
AD: First of all, I just want to say, I feel the same way. None of us are alone. So, that is one strange benefit of right now. These shelter-in-place times, this pandemic period has so changed our daily experience that we really do have a chance to have a do-over, and a reframing of chores and household jobs, from something that it would be nice for my kids, to learn to something that we all need to do so that our family can function.
[4:16] AMB: Yeah. And, of course, you know, it goes without saying, but you know, getting your kids to do more around the house – it does double duty. You know, you're getting stuff done. Everybody's pitching in. But, you know, as you point out, you're also giving your kids life skills. You called them “moving out skills.”
AD: Yes, one of my kids was, you know, he was sort of like mid-teen. And it was like, okay. This is not about, you know, like a boring job that you need to do because it's the right thing to do. This is about an investment in yourself. You're going to you don't want to be that guy who lives in a house with three other people and doesn't know how to operate a mop. You want to be the person who has competence. And I think that actually, our kids want to learn to be competent. They want to learn to be independent. And that's what these skills allow them to do.
AMB: Right. One tip you have is just start small. Like start with one thing.
AD: Yeah. Where chores are concerned, it seems like there are five million one things that we can choose from. But I think that it often really helps to start with a place that they're already kind of expressing some interest. So, some kids just naturally want to know what's going on in the kitchen. So it seems like it makes sense to find a little tiny kitchen chore that they can do. Maybe on a regular basis, maybe every day before dinner, they can, you know, take the forks and put them on the table or something like that. That's always a good place to start. Some kids might be motivated by their own stuff, so they can, you know, start with putting away their shoes. So I always feel like starting where they're already interested always helps things go a little bit easier now.
[5:54] AMB: And the thing about it, though, is, you know, it's still something parents have to work on, because you have to make a system that's sustainable for everyone. Right? So that means you have to remind them. You have to remember to remind them – like that's all on you. So it's not like – even one thing can be like a group effort that everyone has to contribute to.
AD: Yes, absolutely. And I will say personally that the reminding to do the thing is often harder than coming up with the thing to do. It's mental work. It is definitely mental work, for sure. And, you know, there are a couple things I would say about that. The first thing is, I feel like this temporary shelter-in-place period or this pandemic period that we're getting through, it really is a time bound period. It's not going to be forever. And so, yes, we should come up with systems that are sustainable. But I don't think we should worry too much about the fact that what works right now might not work when things sort of open up a little bit more. So maybe right now it might help to just put a Post-it note on the bathroom mirror, you know, for kids to see. Or it might work to just have an alarm on your phone, or something like that, that helps remind you to sort of check in with your kid. Adjust as you go, and remember that they're also learning as they go.
[7:22] AMB: I think my problem is the reminding is then perceived as nagging, and then it always escalates to a fight, because if you have to tell someone to do the same thing over and over again, it escalates.
AD: So I just want you to know that even with the best ideas, sometimes they're gonna work and sometimes they're not. And this is a really – this is a long game that we're playing. So one thing that I will say that really always helped, was to place the chore in between the kid and whatever fun thing the kid wants to do a little bit later. So, sure, you can watch your movie – as soon as you're done with your chore. And ideally, if this is a daily thing, that will help with the whole reminding thing, because, you know, it's sort of like brushing your teeth every night before you go to bed. Eventually, it becomes something that you just do. Your mileage may vary. [laughs] I know. It's a toughie.
AMB: I think it's hard to figure out at what age a kid is capable of what thing. And you say that kids are capable – more capable than we often give them credit for. I think we sort of lose track. We don't quite know what is appropriate for our kids to do at what time and what age.
[8:42] AD: So it's one of those funny, tricky things about parenting – that sometimes the best parenting choices involve us making a choice without all the information. So when I'm thinking to myself, is my kid ready to handle a permanent marker? I kind of have to give them a permanent marker and see what happens. But, I think it's important to point out that when a kid discovers that they can do something that they're not sure that they can do, that just widens the circle of their self-confidence. And getting a hands-on job to do and actually seeing the results of that job, that experience just really builds self-confidence. And kids might not know it at the time, but it's an incredible process for them. So I think the answer to that question of – how do I know if my kid is ready? – is stage a little experiment. Create a sort of a somewhat controlled environment for them to try something, and then try a little bit more. But I think the bottom line is we don't know until we've tried it.
[9:48] AMB: Can you talk a little bit about hands-on learning? Because I think, you know, I have a kid that when she's learning something new, she gets very frustrated very easily. So like, she kind of shuts down and I'm not quite sure always how to help her out of that.
AD: This is where I go to this whole notion of course correction and do-overs. You know, like you hit a wall, you try again. Because, yeah it's tough. It's tough. It's such a funny thing that in school, kids really are rewarded for getting the quote unquote right answer. That's what – that's sort of how school works. You know, if you do it this way, you get the right answer. And if you do it that way, you know, you either get the wrong answer or maybe you don't get such a good grade or whatever. But in life, there are usually several right ways to do something, or it's something you learn as you go. So, being sort of bad at the beginning is sort of normal for just about everything. That's just not exactly how school works. And so I think, again, this is such a good counterpoint for kids in terms of their actual experience.
[10:51] AMB: I realize it's a very privileged perspective, because for some families – because people are working out of their home or because people are sick or, you know, for financial reasons, it's like there's – it's a luxury to to not have everybody do things. Sometimes it's a necessity that everybody in the household pitches in or that younger kids pick up the slack.
AD: I think that's absolutely true, and I think it's so important that we recognize that, and if you, or I, or are one of those people, you know, for whom chores are sort of this optional thing for kids, I think it's important that, you know, we don't shame ourselves about that. But I definitely think that coming to that insight can just widen our perspective a lot, about how we use our time and what's actually essential and valuable in terms of work. So I think that as parents and as teachers of our kids, we can really impart that in a way that's positive and in a way that leads to greater empathy for other people.
[11:56] AMB: Okay. Message to my kids: this will be the summer of sweeping! Asha Dornfest is author of the book Parent Hacks, co-author of the book Minimalist Parenting, and co-host of the Edit Your Life podcast. She and her co-host, Christine Koh, came up with a list of 100 Life Skills You Can Teach Your Kids In 5 Minutes Or Less. You can find a link to them in our show notes.
AMB: You know what life skill you don't have to teach kids? How to turn on a screen to watch a show. But you can make sure that what they are watching is worthwhile, beyond just entertainment value. Coming up, we talk to W. Kamau Bell about the great shows he is watching with his 3 young daughters. What is his 5-year-old binging like it's an AMC show? Find out, when we come back.
AMB: And we're back.
[music]
[13:39] AMB: Race in America has always been a fraught topic to talk about. Add parenting to the mix and it's even more tricky. But, one of my favorite comedians who boldly tackles both is W. Kamau Bell. Kamau calls himself a socio-political comedian. He's the father of 3 mixed race daughters – Sami, Juno, and Asha, all under the age of 9.
WKB (from standup): But that's the thing – she doesn't look like me. It's this weird, like, thing, so like, if I'm at the playground with her, we have to make sure we play right next to each other. 'Cause if she gets away from me – because I don't look like her – so then I'm just a Black dude at the park looking at kids. Huh huh huh huh huh. Huh huh huh huh. Which can get us into a little bit of trouble. Which is why when I go to the park, I don't mess around. I take her birth certificate, my birth certificate, my parents' birth certificate, my grandparents' birth certificate. I'm not messing around, everybody. I'm not messing around. [laughs]
[14:32] AMB: In addition to stand up, Kamau hosts the Emmy Award winning show on CNN called United Shades of America. It's a travel show, like Parts Unknown, but Kamau takes really gutsy, uncomfortable trips, like visiting the KKK, or talking to heads of the alt right movement.
AMB: He and his family live in the Bay Area, and I spoke to him a few weeks ago, when we were solidly in quarantine, mostly indoors with our kids.
WKB: No visits to the playground is absolutely the worst part. Now I'm understanding that, like what a coffee shop is for an adult, a slide is for a kid, you know?
AMB: We recorded this before the killing of George Floyd, and the unrest and protests that followed. Since then, you may have seen Kamau as a guest on a news program or a late night show, speaking out about racism and police violence. When we spoke though, we were just two parents discussing what our girls are watching on TV. We started by talking about one of his favorites, the animated show, Doc McStuffins.
[15:33] WKB: It's this incredible show. And I would say it's one of the greatest TV shows of all time, not just one of the greatest kids' shows, because of the impact. It's a show about a little Black girl who's a doctor for her stuffed animals and toys. And my oldest daughter grew up with it – like it started when she was like around 2 or so. And so in her mind, and the mind of her younger sister and soon to be the sister who's coming along, who will be watching it eventually, the idea of a Black woman doctor wasn't a big deal. And so – because on the show, Doc's mom was a doctor and she's got a private practice, which means she's a successful doctor. So, you know – you know. And so, the first time Sami went to the doctor after she'd been watching Doc McStuffins, and a white man walked to the room, she sort of had a look on her face like – what is this guy doing here? A white man doctor? I don't know about that. So for me, it just shows how important representation is, and that it does make a big difference. And so we have taken the lessons of Doc McStuffins into the rest of the ways in which we bring entertainment to our kids, which means we don't only bring stuff that features young Black girls, but we bring a lot of it. But also they can watch Troll's World Tour, which there – maybe there's a Black woman doing voices, but there are no Black women on screen that I'm aware of.
[16:48] AMB: Do you have other shows that you watch that you feel the same way about? I mean, maybe not as beloved as Doc McStuffins, but do you have other ones?
WKB: Yeah, I mean, we – you know, people always talk about “it's the golden age of TV.” It's the golden age of kids' TV too. So there's a lot of shows for a lot of different reasons that I like. Like another show that my eight year old likes is called Stuck in the Middle, which is, you know, it's a Disney show about a Latino American family. And it's seven kids. So there's like – so the middle kid is the one who the show is based on. It's a very – just a fun show about a family and their wacky hijinks and how, you know, there's seven kids. So each one is a different archetype of a kid and how she's the one who's got to hold it together. And she's smart and she's an inventor. But it's also very much about a Latino American family. So, you know, it feels culturally relevant to us and feels like it's introducing like – you know, that's how my daughter knows what a quinceanera is. And I asked her, are you going to have a quinceanera? She's like, no, because I'm not – that's not our culture. Good job, Disney. I didn't do that. So, it's again, like it's teaching her about different cultures, without going “on this show, we're going to learn about Latin American kids, you know what I mean? So I'd say that's a show that we're a big fan of. Also in our house, we've got a lot of love for Daniel Tiger, which is the animated show that's based on characters that Mr. Rogers created. And so Daniel Tiger's sort of carrying that same Mr. Roger spirit. So as a parent watching, you go, “I remember Daniel Tiger and the neighborhood of Make-Believe,” and our kids are liking it because it's a fun show. And it's got – it's very sort of like teaching of kids, like it's got songs about like – [singing] “you got to try new foods because they might taste gooood!” So in our house, you sort of use it like the Bible. It's like Daniel Tiger says! [singing] “Mad, mad, mad. Sometimes you feel like you're mad.” It's sort of like – it's the book of Daniel.
[18:45] AMB: I've got to try that.
WKB: So that's another – I mean, there's a lot of great shows out there. And the fun thing for me is that I found out that Mr. Rogers – the old school Mr. Rogers – is on the Internet and we were able to pull it up, and all the way back to like season one, episode one, black and white Mr. Rogers TV show was on, and my five year old started watching it, and is watching it the same way that I would watch like Breaking Bad – from episode one all the way through to the end, in black and white – doesn't affect – she doesn't think it's boring, doesn't it's weird. It's just like – it has the same DNA as Daniel Tiger. So she likes it.
[music]
[19:22] AMB: W. Kamau Bell. Check out his recent Netflix special and his Emmy Award-winning CNN show, United Shades of America. The new season starts June 28th.
AMB: So tell us, what are you watching with your kids? I know I'm running out of stuff to watch. I should probably go to commonsensemedia[dot]org to find some new recommendations. You should do it too. And if you and your family want to scream, at anyone, record that scream, and send it to us at parenttrapped[at]common sense[dot]org. This week's screams came from Marjorie Stordeur and her family.
[music]
This episode was produced by me, Ann Marie Baldonado, with Dennis Funk. Our editor is Hillary Frank. We got production help from Natalie Price. Our engineer is Pete Karam, and our theme song was composed by Casey Holford. We get editorial support from Andrea Silenzi, Fred Graver, Kyra Reppen, and Jill Murphy and Ellen Pack.
Common Sense Media is a national nonprofit that rates media based on children's developmental guidelines. To learn more, visit commonsensemedia[dot]org where you'll find age-based ratings and reviews that are written by experts and trusted by families everywhere.
Thanks to our show's founding sponsor, First Republic Bank, supporting your financial goals for the long term. To learn more, visit First Republic[dot]com today.
And be sure you're subscribed to Parent Trapped on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening right now.
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